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| 00:10:07 | rubuildius_amd64 | Ryan Davis: 655f61650; 1756 files, 6116 examples, 20382 expectations, 0 failures, 0 errors; http://rafb.net/p/j8QN4I19.html |
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| 00:20:27 | rubuildius_ppc | Ryan Davis: 655f61650; 1756 files, 6119 examples, 20411 expectations, 0 failures, 0 errors; http://pastie.caboo.se/paste/167583 |
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| 00:27:23 | zenspider | what's that about? |
| 00:29:50 | evan | eh? |
| 00:30:01 | womble | zenspider: The stuff from rubuildius? Just results from CI runs on different platforms. |
| 00:30:14 | zenspider | rubuildius_ppc reported my results twice |
| 00:30:20 | evan | no it didn't |
| 00:30:24 | evan | the first was _amd64 |
| 00:30:57 | Defiler | 19:47 (ppc), 20:10 (amd64), 20:20 (ppc again) |
| 00:31:09 | Defiler | according to /lastlog 655f616 |
| 00:31:12 | evan | it quit in between there |
| 00:31:17 | Defiler | aha |
| 00:31:34 | cremes | i rebooted my machine... safari 3.1 upgrade; that explains the rubuildius_ppc output |
| 00:33:07 | zenspider | evan: ... and? why report twice? |
| 00:33:13 | evan | no clue |
| 00:35:16 | djwhitt | zenspider: because the bot doesn't save session between restarts |
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| 01:30:19 | agardiner | interesting... just saw that Rational has been added to kernel in 1.9 |
| 01:30:34 | agardiner | (as well as Complex) |
| 01:32:54 | brixen | agardiner: are you trying to say that 1.9 is more Rational than 1.8? |
| 01:33:05 | brixen | (and more Complex) |
| 01:33:08 | brixen | :) |
| 01:33:10 | agardiner | i certainly hope not! |
| 01:33:11 | agardiner | :-) |
| 01:33:15 | brixen | heh |
| 01:33:18 | agardiner | well, maybe the latter |
| 01:33:21 | agardiner | :-D |
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| 01:33:53 | agardiner | its interesting because it will break the workaround we have in place for / |
| 01:34:11 | brixen | how so? |
| 01:34:20 | brixen | oh, because of the flag |
| 01:34:53 | agardiner | yeah |
| 01:35:09 | agardiner | it applies to all of kernel |
| 01:35:34 | agardiner | but we need a real solution for the underlying problem anyway |
| 01:35:50 | agardiner | s/real/more robust |
| 01:35:54 | brixen | right |
| 01:36:15 | rue | I dunno if it is fair to call the current solution frail |
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| 01:37:21 | agardiner | well, the same issue is going to bite is again at some point |
| 01:37:45 | agardiner | if not with stdlib, then with user code |
| 01:38:14 | brixen | well, fundamentally, there's a limit to how "ruby" something can be. in MRI that fence is set really wide |
| 01:38:21 | brixen | we shrunk the fence to nonexistent |
| 01:38:27 | brixen | then had to put it back a little |
| 01:38:45 | evan | what is the 1.9 kernel? |
| 01:38:46 | brixen | hopefully, we won't ever have to make it much wider |
| 01:38:48 | evan | the C code? |
| 01:38:57 | evan | so Radtional and Complex are now implemented in C? |
| 01:39:12 | agardiner | not necessarily, but you no longer need to require them |
| 01:39:35 | brixen | probably not, but since overriding Fixnum#/ won't affect any of the C code, it's not a problem for them |
| 01:39:41 | agardiner | i was using Rubinius terminology for 1.9 stuff... |
| 01:39:44 | agardiner | :-S |
| 01:40:03 | brixen | so, it's in core libs now, not stdlib? |
| 01:40:10 | agardiner | yeah |
| 01:43:15 | evan | but how? |
| 01:43:24 | evan | 1.9 has only C core libs |
| 01:43:29 | evan | there is the one prelude file |
| 01:43:37 | evan | are they're doing a require in the prelude file? |
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| 01:44:07 | agardiner | dunno - i didn't look at the code, just saw this post: http://pragdave.blogs.pragprog.com/pragdave/2008/03/complex-and-rat.html |
| 01:45:47 | brixen | well, they added complex.c and rational.c |
| 01:45:51 | brixen | so yeah, more C code |
| 01:46:36 | evan | ug. |
| 01:46:46 | evan | maybe they made Fixnum#/ not insane then |
| 01:46:54 | evan | thus must have |
| 01:46:58 | evan | otherwise SOO many things would break |
| 01:47:03 | brixen | a bunch of rb_funcall's |
| 01:48:42 | evan | looks like Fixnum#/ is the same as 1.8 |
| 01:48:56 | brixen | hmm, I see class Fixnum; alias quof fdiv; end |
| 01:49:01 | evan | where? |
| 01:49:07 | brixen | lib/rational.rb is now 48 lines |
| 01:49:18 | brixen | ours is 530 |
| 01:49:56 | evan | it looks like maybe the made it less insane |
| 01:50:02 | evan | they made it |
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| 01:54:46 | brixen | hmm, I don't know why they needed to rewrite Rational in C |
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| 01:56:25 | brixen | hah, I was reading nurat as natur, short for natural, as in natur_div, natural_div |
| 01:56:38 | brixen | nu rat indeed |
| 01:56:47 | srbaker | brixen: what was it written in? |
| 01:56:59 | brixen | srbaker: in 1.8 it was Ruby |
| 01:57:12 | brixen | in 1.9 they rewrote Rational in C |
| 01:57:20 | srbaker | oh. i thought it was always in C |
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| 04:34:27 | agardiner | hmm... anybody else think it would be useful to have an .rbc decompiler like we used to have under compiler1? |
| 04:35:07 | evan | we had one? |
| 04:35:08 | agardiner | i've got a use for it, so i've revived it and got it working... but not sure whether i should commit it |
| 04:35:10 | evan | what did it do? |
| 04:35:45 | agardiner | it reads an .rbc file and dumps the compiled method in a kind of sexp format of nested arrays, symbols, etc |
| 04:35:57 | agardiner | i can pastie the output if you like |
| 04:36:33 | evan | should be trivial |
| 04:36:39 | evan | since we already have decode |
| 04:36:50 | agardiner | ah, well see i need it to work with mri |
| 04:36:57 | agardiner | which it does |
| 04:36:59 | evan | ah |
| 04:37:01 | evan | ooh that! |
| 04:37:03 | evan | i recall now. |
| 04:37:05 | evan | i wrote that. |
| 04:37:06 | evan | heh |
| 04:37:11 | agardiner | it doesn't seem as useful for rubinius because we have decode |
| 04:37:20 | agardiner | hehe, yeah and i kept fixing it |
| 04:37:23 | evan | it should still work fine |
| 04:37:31 | evan | regardless of the compiler |
| 04:37:36 | agardiner | nah, needed a bit of cleanup but no biggy |
| 04:37:39 | evan | unless it's info about instructions is out of date |
| 04:38:09 | agardiner | well, it used the old Bytecode::Encoder, which moved into ISeq |
| 04:38:15 | evan | ah ah |
| 04:38:16 | evan | ok |
| 04:38:23 | agardiner | plus the format of rbcs has chanegd a bit |
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| 04:39:05 | agardiner | anyway, my question is: should i commit it now i've got it working again? and if so, where? |
| 04:39:24 | evan | mmm |
| 04:39:27 | evan | into lib is fine |
| 04:39:38 | evan | it likely runs fine under both mri and rbx |
| 04:39:58 | agardiner | yeah, i need a require for it to include iseq under mri, but otherwise it works fine |
| 04:40:45 | agardiner | ok, i'll commit it as lib/decompiler.rb |
| 04:42:33 | agardiner | evan: fyi, i finally got my finger out and started a blog |
| 04:43:39 | brixen | agardiner: link? |
| 04:43:58 | agardiner | http://betterruby.wordpress.com/ |
| 04:44:31 | brixen | sweet :) |
| 04:44:39 | agardiner | :-) |
| 04:47:22 | rue | I think someone wrote a decompiler |
| 04:47:43 | agardiner | hehe, yeah we had that discussion... this is that, resurrected |
| 04:48:30 | rue | http://rubyforge.org/projects/prettyrbc/ |
| 04:48:36 | rue | Dunno what shape that may be in |
| 04:48:45 | rue | Think that is jero5 |
| 04:49:08 | agardiner | oh, i wasn't aware of that... |
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| 05:07:56 | boyscout | 1 commit by Adam Gardiner |
| 05:07:57 | boyscout | * Resurrect .rbc decompiler to dump contents of .rbc; 7a839de |
| 05:16:18 | rubuildius_amd64 | Adam Gardiner: 7a839de3c; 1756 files, 6116 examples, 20382 expectations, 0 failures, 0 errors; http://rafb.net/p/w0djXF53.html |
| 05:20:05 | rubuildius_ppc | Adam Gardiner: 7a839de3c; 1756 files, 6119 examples, 20411 expectations, 0 failures, 0 errors; http://pastie.caboo.se/paste/167671 |
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| 05:34:31 | rue | agardiner: Let me know how it works if you try it |
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| 07:25:12 | brixen | interesting: ruby -e "s = ' ' * 100; 1000.times { s << s }" |
| 07:25:29 | brixen | segfaults on MRI 1.8.6p111 on leopard |
| 07:26:23 | evan | you win a cookie? |
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| 07:27:02 | brixen | heh, well, rbx doesn't segfault, just takes 50 sec to complete |
| 07:27:14 | brixen | it is odd to me that mri segfaults |
| 07:27:18 | brixen | that's nasty |
| 07:27:47 | brixen | smashing the stack for fun and profit |
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| 09:03:30 | scoopr | http://www.sapphire-lang.org/ o_O |
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| 09:36:39 | rue | \\ |
| 09:36:45 | rue | Whops |
| 09:37:21 | scoopr | // |
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| 10:39:39 | Defiler | Aah, the red-eye flight.. we meet again my old friend |
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| 16:52:10 | chris2 | anyone attending s3? |
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| 16:54:56 | brixen | chris2: I had hoped to, but doesn't look like it will work out :( |
| 16:55:02 | brixen | chris2: are you attending? |
| 16:55:58 | chris2 | pondering |
| 16:56:53 | wmoxam | anyone attending RubyFringe? |
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| 17:09:24 | chris2 | brixen: i'm unlikely to meet all these people in one place again for 80€ :P |
| 17:11:37 | brixen | no doubt! |
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| 17:12:19 | brixen | I wish they would video tape it |
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| 17:14:52 | rue | Are we still on for 11PST? |
| 17:18:24 | brixen | afaik |
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| 18:33:35 | rue | http://journal.kittensoft.org/2008/3/13/splitting-the-specs-to-a-separate-project-with-git-submodu les |
| 18:34:48 | djwhitt | rue: are specs moving into a separate repos soon? |
| 18:36:36 | antare1 | rue, btw post title on home page is not a link though if I browse category I can copy it |
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| 19:05:24 | rue | djwhitt: It is in the plans, the post kinda just goes over the transition issues |
| 19:08:16 | wifelette leaves the room. | |
| 19:09:33 | djwhitt | cool, I think it'll be both nice and annoying |
| 19:10:06 | djwhitt | nice in that ci will have a fixed set of specs to work with |
| 19:10:16 | djwhitt | it'll be annoying to update the specs though |
| 19:10:19 | wycats leaves the room. | |
| 19:10:22 | rue | Yeah, it kind of requires a change in perspective to do effectively. |
| 19:10:44 | rue | Although we can have all kinds of Rake tasks that simplify the process |
| 19:10:53 | djwhitt | ah, cool |
| 19:11:04 | djwhitt | you imaginging people working with a seperate checkout for specs? |
| 19:11:44 | evan | djwhitt: were you were working on rubuildius? |
| 19:11:49 | evan | or was that dbussink |
| 19:11:56 | djwhitt | that's me |
| 19:12:16 | djwhitt | evan: why do you ask? |
| 19:13:15 | evan | could you code up a feature to have it send out an email when there is a failure or error? |
| 19:13:30 | evan | the email should contain the same thing as the pastie |
| 19:13:41 | djwhitt | sure, I can do that |
| 19:13:49 | evan | wonderful |
| 19:13:52 | djwhitt | where do you want the email sent? |
| 19:13:59 | evan | the google dev list |
| 19:14:02 | djwhitt | k |
| 19:14:28 | djwhitt | I'll try to get that done today or tomorrow |
| 19:14:45 | rue | Man, Larry Page will be totally like "what is this Rubinius thing?" |
| 19:15:01 | evan | djwhitt: cool |
| 19:15:06 | antare1 | evan, while you are here. I still want to ask you about references list for VM hacking wannabees ;) |
| 19:15:09 | evan | djwhitt: thanks! |
| 19:15:17 | evan | ack! |
| 19:15:23 | evan | today, I promise. |
| 19:15:33 | antare1 | evan, this sea sailed ;) |
| 19:15:48 | antare1 | evan, I can put some links for you even... and submit a ticket to LH |
| 19:15:59 | antare1 | so you can just create a page from those |
| 19:16:44 | antare1 | evan, ok I'll set up some links and send them to dev list today. For you convenience :) |
| 19:17:11 | rue | antare1: The docs look OK, though as brixen mentioned there are still some unnecessary ones |
| 19:17:13 | evan | antare1: :) |
| 19:17:21 | brixen | antare1: I did look at your patch, a couple minor things: I wouldn't change any of the debug printf strings, and there's still too many inline comments imo |
| 19:17:25 | brixen | rue: :) |
| 19:17:28 | rue | Heh |
| 19:17:57 | antare1 | rue, I already rewritten most of them |
| 19:18:06 | antare1 | rue, be ready for another patch review tonight ;) |
| 19:18:27 | rue | antare1: That is why I recommend doing smaller patches. I know that you want to make sure you have all the info and everything is correct but honestly, it is not that big of a deal if something is erroneous |
| 19:18:28 | brixen | antare1: and there's still comments for functions like /* whether to do X */ if you could change those to /* returns FALSE if X, else returns TRUE */ something like that |
| 19:18:32 | antare1 | evan, the only reason I ask actually is because I cannot find a bit of info on this spaghetti stack |
| 19:18:55 | evan | ah la stack de spaghetti! |
| 19:18:58 | rue | When you commit it, several eyes can look it over and make sure it is all correct |
| 19:19:18 | evan | antare1: http://users.ipa.net/~dwighth/smalltalk/bluebook/bluebook_chapter26.html#Contexts26 |
| 19:20:23 | brixen | antare1: I've found this to be quite good: "Virtual Machines" by Iain D. Craig, Springer 2006 |
| 19:20:51 | brixen | still reading it though |
| 19:21:06 | brixen | it's got a good discussion of stack vs register vm's |
| 19:21:31 | antare1 | brixen, already did that, let me post another diff later tonight |
| 19:21:40 | brixen | antare1: ok, cool |
| 19:21:55 | antare1 | hm... connection broke up, brixen did you receive my answer? |
| 19:22:00 | brixen | yeah |
| 19:22:41 | brixen | antare1: you know about this? http://www.donttreadonme.co.uk/rubinius-irc/ |
| 19:22:48 | brixen | in case you miss something in channel |
| 19:23:45 | rue | Also, screen |
| 19:24:16 | brixen | yeah, until my vps hangs :) |
| 19:24:48 | rue | I have backup pigeon power |
| 19:25:09 | jartz leaves the room. | |
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| 19:25:13 | brixen | squirrels! |
| 19:25:13 | djwhitt | I just run an IRC proxy on a vps |
| 19:25:25 | djwhitt | http://www.ctrlproxy.org/ |
| 19:25:27 | djwhitt | works great |
| 19:25:46 | evan | ooh |
| 19:25:48 | brixen | djwhitt: what vps do you use? |
| 19:25:51 | evan | i'm ditching dircproxy then |
| 19:25:54 | evan | it sucks. |
| 19:26:05 | djwhitt | evan: yeah, ctrlproxy is pretty sweet |
| 19:26:05 | brixen | djwhitt: I think mine has a specific no-no about doing that |
| 19:26:27 | djwhitt | brixen: I'm running on Slicehost |
| 19:26:36 | brixen | oh nice, I've got one of those |
| 19:26:41 | brixen | I think I'll move it |
| 19:26:50 | djwhitt | yeah, it's been working great for me |
| 19:27:01 | rue | *sigh* |
| 19:27:04 | djwhitt | I think I've had it going for about 3 weeks now without a crash |
| 19:27:21 | djwhitt | it buffers messages to |
| 19:27:29 | rue | Do not Command-L in Firefox3 and then move to a different space. |
| 19:27:30 | djwhitt | and to the best of my knowledge it hasn't missed anything |
| 19:27:34 | brixen | djwhitt: so what client do you use? |
| 19:27:47 | djwhitt | brixen: pidgen |
| 19:28:05 | djwhitt | or rather, pidgin |
| 19:28:33 | djwhitt | brixen: it's not great imo, but it's good enough for my usage |
| 19:28:40 | obiejuan leaves the room. | |
| 19:28:41 | brixen | ok |
| 19:28:55 | brixen | rue: you use weechat? |
| 19:29:20 | rue | Yeah |
| 19:29:30 | rue | Vertical split is very useful |
| 19:30:06 | brixen | yeah, saw you screenshot, that looked sweet |
| 19:30:12 | brixen | s/you/your/ |
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| 19:32:49 | headius | g'day! |
| 19:33:07 | brixen | 'lo! |
| 19:33:31 | rue | Morning |
| 19:34:07 | evan | alright, lunch then hacking at Stir Crazy (my local coffee shop) |
| 19:34:30 | headius | hey, are you guys keeping a list optimizations you're doing? |
| 19:34:33 | headius | like the times unrolling thing |
| 19:34:45 | brixen | headius: that's been disabled for now |
| 19:34:48 | headius | oh? |
| 19:34:50 | headius | why's that? |
| 19:35:04 | brixen | needs work on breaking from an inlined block |
| 19:35:27 | brixen | I don't think we have a list, but I think they're all plugins |
| 19:35:39 | brixen | so lib/compiler/plugins.rb |
| 19:36:37 | brixen | I want to look into a simple method inlining opt |
| 19:37:12 | brixen | small body ruby methods especially in loops |
| 19:37:15 | headius | how do you do that without knowing the target method |
| 19:37:30 | brixen | dunno yet :P |
| 19:37:34 | headius | heh |
| 19:37:35 | evan | about to leave |
| 19:37:36 | brixen | it would be runtime |
| 19:37:38 | evan | but i'll tell ya |
| 19:37:41 | evan | yeah |
| 19:37:46 | evan | it seems that times is called |
| 19:37:56 | evan | and outputs an inlined version if the receiver is a number |
| 19:37:56 | headius | ahh, so moving toward runtime optz? |
| 19:38:12 | evan | it then checks to see if the receiver was a number, and if so, use the inline version |
| 19:38:18 | evan | otherwise use the normal verion |
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| 19:39:07 | brixen | headius: yeah, the existing compiler plugin for #times is pretty easy to understand |
| 19:39:09 | headius | I played with something similar a while back, but the flow-control hassles backed it down |
| 19:39:12 | evan | there is another check that sees if the method that would be called in the kernel version of times |
| 19:39:26 | evan | called is the kernel version |
| 19:39:43 | headius | does squeak do these sorts of things too? |
| 19:39:46 | evan | yeah, the flow-control is broken in it though |
| 19:39:48 | evan | no |
| 19:39:52 | evan | not at all |
| 19:40:10 | headius | it seems a little weird to optimize times to me |
| 19:40:24 | evan | I was playing :) |
| 19:40:38 | evan | it's simple enough, i wanted to see how hard it would be to have more of them |
| 19:40:48 | headius | ahh |
| 19:40:48 | brixen | headius: well, it's an attractive construct |
| 19:41:01 | headius | duby will have similar plugin architecture...in fact it will be entirely plugin-based |
| 19:41:14 | headius | so allow inferred static typing throughout, but still full ruby syntax |
| 19:41:19 | headius | so perhaps a similar approach there |
| 19:41:42 | obiejuan enters the room. | |
| 19:42:31 | brixen | headius: the thing about inlining #times is the block overhead, so people tend to use it instead of: i = 0; while i < len... |
| 19:42:45 | brixen | and that isn't very good performance |
| 19:42:50 | headius | yeah, I know |
| 19:43:01 | brixen | makes pretty code though |
| 19:43:16 | brixen | I just did an experiment with an external iterator for String |
| 19:43:35 | brixen | to combine the loop operations with the access operation |
| 19:43:56 | brixen | for us, it's the tiniest bit faster than a while loop |
| 19:44:01 | brixen | so, it's not worth it |
| 19:44:28 | brixen | and it makes the whole thing more opaque to a runtime bytecode optimizer, I think |
| 19:45:39 | brixen | lunch, biab.. |
| 19:47:57 | headius | I'll have to have a look at your compiler plugin structure, see if it helps with duby's plugin system |
| 19:48:14 | nicksieger leaves the room. | |
| 19:48:25 | headius | at the moment I'm finishing up an AST translator to isolate the Ruby AST from the Duby compiler system |
| 19:48:46 | headius | pastie |
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| 19:49:33 | pastie | http://pastie.org/167975 by headius. |
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| 19:50:39 | headius | hmm, looks like ifnode doesn't inspect exactly right in the ruby ast |
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| 20:04:52 | crossblaim | hello |
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| 20:11:25 | rue | Afternoon |
| 20:12:23 | seydar enters the room. | |
| 20:13:11 | seydar | hallo mates |
| 20:14:27 | seydar | has anyone started work on porting IO/Wait to FFI? |
| 20:14:47 | brainopia enters the room. | |
| 20:18:23 | rue | I do not believe so |
| 20:22:37 | seydar | awesome |
| 20:22:45 | seydar | my chance to shine! |
| 20:23:04 | seydar | is there any hope to convert curses to FFI? |
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| 20:36:32 | antare1 | heh, what a nice post by agardiner on Shotgun |
| 20:36:40 | antare1 | http://betterruby.wordpress.com/2008/03/18/shotgun-the-rubinius-virtual-machine/ |
| 20:36:51 | evan enters the room. | |
| 20:36:57 | evan | ok, i'm trying out ctrlproxy |
| 20:37:32 | evan | i love this coffee shop. |
| 20:37:48 | evan | the guys outside are talking about how crazy scientology is |
| 20:39:04 | seydar | crazy good or crazy in the normal sense? |
| 20:39:26 | evan | crazy hilarious |
| 20:39:55 | djwhitt | whatever, it makes total sense, we're all possesed by dead aliens |
| 20:40:26 | rue | Comatose |
| 20:40:32 | seydar | i'll buy it |
| 20:40:40 | evan | rue: triple letter word score? |
| 20:40:46 | miamoto_musashi leaves the room. | |
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| 20:47:12 | rue | Serendipitous coincidence of music and conversation. |
| 20:47:52 | rue | I was listening to "Jigsaw Falling into Place" by Radiohead. |
| 20:50:31 | d2dchat leaves the room. | |
| 20:50:38 | seydar | so evan. i brought up the idea of llvm with rubinius, and someone said that it COULD work, but there were some issues with implementing true closures |
| 20:50:52 | evan | yep |
| 20:51:07 | seydar | and there's that one method that deals with it, but you claim its not portable? |
| 20:51:11 | d2dchat enters the room. | |
| 20:51:30 | evan | well, i guess llvm doesn't even fully support the method |
| 20:51:54 | evan | the execution model of rubinius is based arround the spaghetti stack |
| 20:52:31 | seydar | but the only issue is with closures? |
| 20:52:39 | evan | no |
| 20:52:48 | seydar | AND the execution model? |
| 20:52:50 | evan | because closures are built on the spaghetti stack |
| 20:52:57 | jartz enters the room. | |
| 20:52:58 | seydar | yargh. gotcha |
| 20:53:31 | jartz_ leaves the room. | |
| 20:53:55 | djwhitt | but C runs on LLVM right? |
| 20:54:04 | djwhitt | so wouldn't it be possible to just port the C VM to LLVM? |
| 20:54:36 | evan | sure, thats done |
| 20:54:40 | seydar | yes, but my goal was to do bytecode -> llvm bytecode |
| 20:54:44 | evan | because LLVM can compile C |
| 20:54:56 | evan | right, if you want to translate methods to llvm bytecode though, thats a different ball of wax |
| 20:55:09 | seydar | a happier ball of wax? |
| 20:55:35 | djwhitt | well, just running the C VM on top of LLVM could be useful because it does JIT |
| 20:55:40 | d2dchat leaves the room. | |
| 20:55:52 | evan | djwhitt: thats only useful, again, if we translate the bytecode to llvm bytecode |
| 20:56:22 | d2dchat enters the room. | |
| 20:56:32 | djwhitt | I thought that C compiled on LLVM would output LLVM bytecode by default |
| 20:56:48 | seydar | yea |
| 20:57:03 | seydar | but then the C core would be on LLVM, but not the rubinius bytecode |
| 20:57:17 | evan | it would just be an interpreter running inside LLVM then |
| 20:57:20 | djwhitt | ah yes |
| 20:57:22 | evan | no gain |
| 20:57:23 | djwhitt | gotcha |
| 20:59:02 | seydar | so about Rubinius bytecode -> LLVM... is this impossible? you said its a new ball of wax, so i just want to check |
| 20:59:31 | evan | nothing is impossible |
| 20:59:46 | evan | it would require a completely new execution model though |
| 21:00:10 | seydar | i should have said "impractical", then |
| 21:00:11 | dkubb enters the room. | |
| 21:00:26 | evan | i think it could be interesting |
| 21:00:34 | evan | so don't let me turn you away |
| 21:01:26 | antare1 | what are benefits of compiling to LLVM bytecode at the moment? |
| 21:01:42 | evan | vastly reduced overhead |
| 21:01:48 | evan | because llvm will jit the code to machine code |
| 21:02:08 | seydar | and it can be compiled to C |
| 21:02:18 | seydar | so like, Ruby -> C compiler |
| 21:03:29 | djwhitt | I guess the problems you deal with when implement LLVM are pretty much the same as you would have writing a native Ruby compiler only difference is LLVM has a nicer instruction set right? |
| 21:04:09 | djwhitt | native Ruby compiler meaning something like Ruby to x86 machine code |
| 21:04:50 | srbaker leaves the room. | |
| 21:04:54 | seydar | my goal was to first get some bindings going, and then write something to take the bytecode and create LLVM modules etc with it |
| 21:05:10 | seydar | thus I don't deal with anybody's bytes but rubinius's |
| 21:05:24 | evan | something like Ruby -> C probably isn't the road to take |
| 21:05:48 | evan | following the java model, it's much easier to generate machine code that can only be run against the current program |
| 21:05:56 | evan | ie, directly into heap jit |
| 21:07:02 | seydar | that *kinda* made sense |
| 21:07:21 | seydar | what is heap jit? isn't all machine code pretty program specific? |
| 21:08:27 | evan | seydar: i mean, generating machine code that contains information gathered at runtime |
| 21:08:36 | evan | and likely contains raw pointers |
| 21:08:40 | seydar | ah. |
| 21:11:17 | seydar | is there _anything_ that can be done outside of shotgun to produce faster executable code? |
| 21:12:14 | djwhitt | compiler opts perhaps? |
| 21:12:23 | brixen | seydar: this would be inside shotgun, but interesting: http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/722881.html |
| 21:13:12 | seydar | sounds interesting. |
| 21:13:25 | seydar | sounds incredibly complex, too |
| 21:13:30 | brixen | not really |
| 21:13:36 | brixen | that's a pretty simple description of it |
| 21:13:46 | seydar | simple?!?! it made no sense! |
| 21:13:46 | brixen | we already are direct threaded |
| 21:13:53 | ctennis enters the room. | |
| 21:13:53 | brixen | did you read it yet? :P |
| 21:13:59 | seydar | the abstract, yes |
| 21:14:04 | brixen | heh, read the paper |
| 21:14:08 | brixen | it's only like 12 pages |
| 21:14:22 | seydar | k. i can do /that/ |
| 21:14:55 | brixen | you want to bite of that big ass llvm cookie, might as well look at something _simpler_ ;) |
| 21:15:28 | seydar | llvm seemed so innocent! |
| 21:15:48 | brixen | heh, well, have a whack, le'me know how it goes :) |
| 21:15:51 | seydar | anything else you'd all recommend me reading? |
| 21:15:59 | brixen | about? |
| 21:16:04 | seydar | brixen: btw, i dont know C. so i can only read it and *think* about implementing it |
| 21:16:19 | seydar | about making the end code faster (outside of shotgun( |
| 21:16:21 | seydar | ) |
| 21:16:24 | brixen | oh boy, then read "the C programming language" |
| 21:16:27 | brixen | jeez, already |
| 21:16:52 | seydar | i know! |
| 21:16:58 | brixen | heh |
| 21:17:15 | seydar | i'm kinda waiting for Cuby to come out |
| 21:17:22 | seydar | or C/Ruby. whatever the codename is |
| 21:17:29 | djwhitt | C isn't that complicated you could probably learn the basics in a week |
| 21:17:32 | brixen | nah, you will be well served knowing C |
| 21:17:36 | brixen | learning it |
| 21:17:40 | brixen | it'll take you 3 days |
| 21:17:45 | seydar | i can write C. i can do Java, but doing C *well* is my problem |
| 21:18:24 | brixen | practice makes perfect :) |
| 21:18:52 | seydar | evan, what needs to be done to get C/Ruby out and about? or are you still working on the syntax design? |
| 21:19:14 | evan | yeah, but feel free to take a crack at if you want |
| 21:19:30 | seydar | coolio |
| 21:20:56 | seydar | what are you looking to get from C/Ruby, though? |
| 21:21:18 | seydar | like direct C source code? |
| 21:21:24 | evan | likely |
| 21:22:03 | djwhitt | seydar: headius is working on something similar for Java right now: http://headius.blogspot.com/2008/03/duby-type-inferred-ruby-like-jvm.html |
| 21:22:21 | seydar | i saw that! thought it was awesome |
| 21:22:37 | evan | seydar: if you're interested in LLVM |
| 21:22:54 | evan | then taking something like what druby is and having it output LLVM bytecode would be awesome |
| 21:23:36 | pietia enters the room. | |
| 21:23:44 | seydar | it would be. I was seriously *this* close to considering it. but then i realized that bytecode changes |
| 21:23:56 | seydar | and still, would we then be able to do spaghetti stack? |
| 21:24:00 | evan | well |
| 21:24:04 | evan | don't worry about that at first |
| 21:24:06 | antare1 | brixen, hey have you seen that acm.org link at citeseer? |
| 21:24:21 | brixen | antare1: which link? |
| 21:24:30 | evan | a tool that can turn ruby syntax into LLVM bytecode, no matter the execution model, would be useful |
| 21:24:38 | evan | even just as a frontend for LLVM |
| 21:24:42 | seydar | awesome! |
| 21:24:46 | seydar | i feel useful |
| 21:24:50 | evan | where we don't care that the backend doesn't match the execution model of ruby |
| 21:24:54 | brixen | antare1: also, this is interesting: http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/arnold04survey.html |
| 21:25:25 | seydar | evan: maybe it'd be cool if i could make it use the same front end as Duby, so that rubinius could then easily be written for Java |
| 21:25:30 | seydar | huzzah |
| 21:25:57 | evan | heh |
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| 21:28:07 | antare1 | evan, it would be interesting but does it actually make sense? we want Rubinius in Ruby, don't we? :) |
| 21:28:27 | evan | yeah, but we can always work toward that |
| 21:28:36 | evan | without trying to do everything at once |
| 21:28:57 | seydar | it would be coded in ruby |
| 21:29:09 | seydar | but that would get compiled to C |
| 21:29:11 | seydar | or llvm |
| 21:29:27 | seydar | no language (very few) is *truly* self hosting |
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| 21:31:49 | antare1 | will be back son |
| 21:31:50 | jptix | english? :) |
| 21:31:55 | antare1 | s/son/soon |
| 21:32:06 | evan | jptix: modern english was bootstrapped by middle |
| 21:32:07 | evan | so not really |
| 21:32:17 | antare1 | jptix, I think japanese is even more self-hosted :) |
| 21:32:27 | jptix | hehe |
| 21:32:32 | antare1 | because it is pretty bounded to Japan |
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| 21:32:46 | brixen | except for most of the writing and the words adopted from chinese, portuguese, and english :) |
| 21:33:00 | seydar | and mongolian |
| 21:33:11 | seydar | they found links between it and mongolian |
| 21:33:23 | evan | i'd say it's a tie between finnish and hungarian |
| 21:33:35 | seydar | well duh |
| 21:33:42 | evan | since they have their own language group, which is called "wtf is that!?" |
| 21:33:46 | seydar | finnish is descended from hungarian |
| 21:33:49 | seydar | Finno-Ugric |
| 21:34:08 | seydar | there is no tie between Finno-Ugric and Indo-European |
| 21:34:13 | evan | Bushmen is probably up there |
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| 21:34:26 | seydar | machine code is too |
| 21:34:43 | jptix | but no adoption of concepts from other languages can't be a criteria for "self-hosted" |
| 21:34:50 | seydar | headius: do you know where i could get a copy of your duby source? |
| 21:34:53 | evan | well, it was bootstrapped by neuron chatter inside a human |
| 21:35:22 | seydar | fine. ELECTRICITY |
| 21:35:26 | evan | :D |
| 21:35:30 | seydar | bootstrapped by energy. which electricity is |
| 21:35:46 | evan | sure, thats sorta like RNA |
| 21:35:47 | jayWHY enters the room. | |
| 21:36:02 | seydar | what time zone is headius in? |
| 21:36:08 | tarcieri | hey evan, any idea what's up with MVM? |
| 21:36:16 | evan | tarcieri: no, i need to take a look at it |
| 21:37:05 | tarcieri | ok, cool |
| 21:37:20 | djwhitt | seydar: headius is in central unless he's travelling |
| 21:37:41 | seydar | djwhitt: then he should be alive alert and enthusiastic around now.... |
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| 21:42:40 | antares enters the room. | |
| 21:42:46 | antares | back |
| 21:43:26 | seydar | did you bring headius with you? |
| 21:43:29 | antares | brixen, I asked about this document (at citeseer): http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=263754&coll=portal&dl=ACM/ |
| 21:45:09 | antares | brixen, found it: http://users.ipa.net/~dwighth/squeak/oopsla_squeak.html |
| 21:46:33 | brixen | antares: ah yeah, interesting paper |
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| 21:49:31 | djwhitt | ok, this maybe a stupid question since I'm not super familiar with low level VM stuff, but is context threading compatible with the spaghetti stack? |
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| 21:54:07 | brixen | dgtized: I think you'd have to do some extra work if you unwind the stack, I think the paper refers to that |
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| 22:00:13 | antares | brixen, maybe put IRC logs url to channel header? I keep forgetting it, for instance |
| 22:01:20 | brixen | antares: del.icio.us ! |
| 22:02:22 | moofbong leaves the room. | |
| 22:02:27 | antares | brixen, it has strong relation to this IRC channel, why not put it in header? I use rubini.us community page instead ;) |
| 22:05:18 | GMFlash leaves the room. | |
| 22:06:13 | brixen | antares: well, I don't control the channel header, and it might be more useful for current stuff |
| 22:06:33 | srbaker enters the room. | |
| 22:08:58 | djwhitt | brixen: finished reading the paper, seems like you could implement everything but the mapping of vm return instructions to native without too much trouble... has anyone tried it yet? |
| 22:09:10 | headius | hiya |
| 22:09:52 | brixen | heya |
| 22:10:00 | headius | someone was looking for me? |
| 22:10:10 | brixen | djwhitt: seems straightforward |
| 22:10:19 | brixen | djwhitt: I haven't asked evan about it yet |
| 22:10:29 | brixen | headius: seydar was looking for your duby code |
| 22:10:40 | headius | ahh, ok |
| 22:10:44 | brixen | but he's left the channel |
| 22:10:52 | brixen | he was looking into having it output llvm |
| 22:11:10 | headius | I think he mentioned that at one point |
| 22:11:34 | headius | I'm isolating the logic of looking up/representing a type from anything Java related, so it should be possible |
| 22:11:49 | agardiner enters the room. | |
| 22:11:50 | brixen | cool |
| 22:11:59 | agardiner | morning |
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| 22:12:05 | brixen | morning! |
| 22:12:22 | agardiner | with an exclamation point an all! :-D |
| 22:12:32 | brixen | :) |
| 22:12:36 | evan | agardiner: morning! |
| 22:12:43 | agardiner | hi evan! |
| 22:13:27 | agardiner | how is everyone today? looking forward to the easter break? |
| 22:13:54 | evan | we don't have such a think |
| 22:13:54 | evan | thing |
| 22:13:54 | evan | but i guess spring break is coming up soon |
| 22:13:55 | womble | Easter *break*? Bwahahaha. |
| 22:14:08 | evan | since i left school, i've lost all idea of when the school breaks are |
| 22:14:11 | womble | I don't get a break over Easter. A 4-day weekend is a chance for extended maintenance windows. |
| 22:14:21 | antares | agardiner, morning! :) |
| 22:14:25 | agardiner | hehe, well i got some great news yesterday - the place i'm working at gets Tuesday off as well! |
| 22:14:31 | rue | Morning, agardiner |
| 22:14:32 | agardiner | so its a five day break for me! :-) |
| 22:14:35 | evan | agardiner: woo! |
| 22:14:42 | agardiner | hey rue, antares |
| 22:14:57 | womble | agardiner: You're killing me here, man. |
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| 22:15:08 | agardiner | womble: :-D |
| 22:15:09 | lachie leaves the room. | |
| 22:15:22 | antares | agardiner, may I ask you a stupid question? I put your two nice blog posts on references list (just a page with literature for VM hacker wannabes), what is your first name? :) |
| 22:15:30 | agardiner | ... course, i don't get paid for any of these days off |
| 22:15:37 | agardiner | but still... i'll take em! |
| 22:15:48 | agardiner | antares: Adam |
| 22:16:03 | antares | agardiner, that's what I thought :) |
| 22:16:35 | agardiner | saw you guys were talking about the spaghetti stack... |
| 22:16:41 | antares | evan, references page with titles and links I know is done. What markup do you prefer? |
| 22:16:47 | agardiner | that was gonna be the subject of another post |
| 22:16:50 | evan | antares: whatev |
| 22:16:57 | evan | agardiner: yay! great first posts btw |
| 22:17:05 | agardiner | evan: thanks! |
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| 22:18:38 | antares | evan, want me to open up a ticket for it or send it to you somehow? |
| 22:18:46 | evan | ticket |
| 22:18:53 | antares | alrighty |
| 22:19:22 | evan | zenspider: is ZenTest running under rubinius? |
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| 22:24:59 | antares | evan, ticket: http://tinyurl.com/2s5pwj |
| 22:25:37 | evan | cool |
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| 22:59:14 | dmpk2k | The memory paper by Ulrich Drepper might go well on that reference list. |
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| 23:28:52 | antares | dmpk2k, one of Self papers? could you shoot me a link? |
| 23:29:22 | brixen | antares: perhaps this: http://lwn.net/Articles/250967/ |
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| 23:34:37 | antares | brixen, thanks for pointing |
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