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| 00:00:51 | Kuttenbrunzer enters the room. | |
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| 00:02:33 | antares | djwhitt: ok going to set it up now |
| 00:02:40 | djwhitt | nice! |
| 00:03:34 | djwhitt | antares: another option would be to setup a wiki somewhere |
| 00:03:40 | djwhitt | whatever you think is best is fine though |
| 00:04:02 | antares | djwhitt: I have wikis with all hate of the universe |
| 00:04:10 | djwhitt | hehe |
| 00:04:13 | antares | djwhitt: wikis are hawaiian for "can't find shit" |
| 00:04:23 | djwhitt | another option is Drupal then |
| 00:04:31 | djwhitt | has a pretty decent book module |
| 00:04:42 | antares | djwhitt: I think git repository + markup + webgen is a good fit |
| 00:04:44 | fbuilesv | antares: Weird you say that, Wikipedia seems to work just ok for me ;) |
| 00:05:18 | djwhitt | antares: sounds good, just thought I'd throw some options out there |
| 00:05:27 | antares | djwhitt: use any text editor you like instead of browser, have a great distribution and versioning tool, have a lightning fast website with nginx |
| 00:05:54 | antares | fbuilesv: it is because a lot of people clean it up every day |
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| 00:06:20 | antares | fbuilesv: most of wikis I have seen have no any structure at all, just a mess, mess, mess |
| 00:06:24 | fbuilesv | antares: it was a joke :P I really like the idea of github + webgen |
| 00:06:39 | antares | ok git repo is initialized |
| 00:06:51 | antares | let me create a readme and push it to github so you can fork it |
| 00:09:43 | antares | fork away: http://github.com/michaelklishin/rubinius-book/tree |
| 00:09:56 | antares | um, I have a weird idea |
| 00:10:24 | antares | what if we use Python for website publishing... I mean Vellum from Zed Shaw. I probably will be beaten for this idea :) |
| 00:10:55 | antares | someone wants to help with setting up a TOC? :) |
| 00:11:46 | djwhitt | antares: isn't Vellum more or less Rake for Python? |
| 00:12:03 | antares | djwhitt: yeah, more or less :) |
| 00:12:07 | djwhitt | I mean, I know Zed is using it for publishing stuff, but it looked like it was just a build system |
| 00:12:12 | fbuilesv | antares: do you mean vellum (rake) or idiopidae? |
| 00:12:20 | antares | djwhitt: right |
| 00:12:30 | antares | fbuilesv: I mean vellum |
| 00:12:30 | djwhitt | eh, I'd just use Rake then |
| 00:12:41 | antares | djwhitt: I said it was a weird idea ;) |
| 00:12:47 | djwhitt | :) |
| 00:13:01 | antares | we a need a TOC and content first anyway |
| 00:13:07 | djwhitt | indeed |
| 00:13:10 | antares | at least a couple of chapters |
| 00:13:19 | antares | so I care no about publishing tools for now |
| 00:14:05 | fbuilesv | antares: RedBook, reminds me of my day job (http://fly.cc.fer.hr/~unreal/theredbook/) :-) |
| 00:15:06 | djwhitt | antares: you could steal some ideas from the Bluebook |
| 00:15:06 | antares | I think it should be laid out like the blue book: first we tell about compiled methods, then about spaghetti stack, then about how messages are sent, then about primitives and FFI, then about object memory, then about CPU abstraction and optcodes, then... then we all become rich and famous |
| 00:15:11 | djwhitt | heh |
| 00:15:13 | antares | djwhitt: ;) |
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| 00:21:04 | antares | does merb run on Rubinius already? |
| 00:21:31 | antares | what I mean is there are some good points about having a django book like commenting system on the web |
| 00:21:42 | antares | and it would be cool to have it running on rubinius :) |
| 00:22:13 | djwhitt | antares: last I heard Merb wasn't quite there yet |
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| 00:37:57 | antares | TOC pushed |
| 00:38:06 | antares | please have a look at what we have now |
| 00:38:37 | antares | unfortunately I do not know details of everything so I cannot set up a TOC for some chapters |
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| 00:53:16 | antares | djwhitt: could you have a look at TOC please? I need some feedback before I start compiled methods chapter (that's what I am more or less familiar with). |
| 00:54:00 | djwhitt | antares: sure, I'll look at it. keep in mind I'm not exactly a Rubinius VM expert though |
| 00:55:08 | antares | djwhitt: me either |
| 00:55:29 | antares | djwhitt: I have to say I am in Rubinius mostly because I want to learn things beyond I know |
| 00:55:42 | antares | djwhitt: I literally learned damn C digging shotgun |
| 00:56:03 | antares | I learned smalltalk reading the blue book |
| 00:56:21 | antares | now I learn how VM operates and gc works :) |
| 00:57:28 | djwhitt | does Rubinius have object memory in the same sense that Smalltalk 80 does? |
| 00:58:12 | antares | djwhitt: yes |
| 00:58:25 | antares | djwhitt: you can find object_memory.h under shotgun/lib |
| 00:58:51 | djwhitt | cool, I'm learning just by reading the TOC ;) |
| 00:59:34 | djwhitt | yeah, looks good to me |
| 00:59:40 | djwhitt | TOC I mean |
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| 02:00:02 | djwhitt | I look forward to reading it :) |
| 02:00:13 | antares | djwhitt: ok I'll write up something for chapter on compiled methods and friends then show it to people here :) |
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| 02:20:38 | mass | I see ezmobius |
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| 02:27:44 | rue | Hey, mass |
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| 02:41:46 | antares | ezmobius: great talk on Merb, btw :) got me very interested |
| 02:41:55 | ezmobius | thx ;) |
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| 03:19:18 | rue | antares: I am sorry, did you say you had another doc patch? I neglected to mark it down and only now thought of it |
| 03:19:50 | rue | antares: Also, have you added any FFI docs? I will do another pass and will add a few notes as I go |
| 03:20:10 | antares | rue: it should be reworked and improved. I am working on first bits of rubinius book now and will get back to my doc branch tomorrow. Have some rest :) |
| 03:20:19 | imajes leaves the room. | |
| 03:20:39 | rue | It is barely 10pm! |
| 03:20:41 | antares | rue: not yet. You may leave some notes for me. FFI is on my shortlist rather than long list of things to document |
| 03:20:56 | djwhitt | rue: you in EST too? |
| 03:20:58 | antares | rue: it is a sleepless night, isn't it? |
| 03:21:21 | antares | rue: it's 5:21am here at my place (GMT +2) |
| 03:21:25 | antares | :P |
| 03:21:37 | rue | So clearly ONE of us should go to bed ;) |
| 03:21:47 | antares | rue: haha :) |
| 03:21:49 | rue | djwhitt: Yeah, OH |
| 03:22:01 | djwhitt | cool, I'm in PA |
| 03:22:08 | Kuttenbrunzer leaves the room. | |
| 03:22:16 | antares | djwhitt: Philly? |
| 03:22:29 | djwhitt | not in the city, but yeah, that area |
| 03:23:44 | djwhitt | Ohio and Pennsylvania regular hotbeads of technological inovation |
| 03:23:47 | djwhitt | hehe |
| 03:24:16 | rue | Hey now, we did invent the first steam-powered microchip |
| 03:24:25 | rue | Granted it was last year |
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| 03:25:04 | antares | VVSiz_: hi :) |
| 03:26:07 | rue | Morning |
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| 03:35:48 | antares | finally got every aspect of object memory... |
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| 03:44:28 | mass | hiya rue, sorry I missed that earlier :) |
| 03:46:52 | rue | I am not talking to you anymore. Not patiently waiting at the computer until I deign to appear is unforgivable |
| 03:52:15 | mass | ok. |
| 03:52:23 | mass | I'm not sorry anymore |
| 03:53:54 | rue | Good for you! |
| 03:53:57 | rue | How goes? |
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| 03:59:46 | mass | pretty good, chatting up a friend in sydney right now |
| 04:00:01 | mass | trying to decide what to do next on my json library for java so I can finish it and move on to something else ;) |
| 04:00:08 | mass | I have a hard time finishing freetime projects |
| 04:00:40 | rue | You could hire a personal code coach or something |
| 04:01:20 | mass | lol |
| 04:01:42 | mass | "use those angle brackets! now cast! cast!" |
| 04:02:09 | mass | java definately has the mantra "no pain no gain" |
| 04:02:15 | mass | or maybe "all gain is painful" |
| 04:02:18 | drbrain | mass: it's called a "pairing partner" |
| 04:02:55 | mass | I've tried that, it seems most of the gals I meet aren't into java either |
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| 04:04:59 | rue | Hm, would it be useful to have simple conditional macros (in lieu of real ones?) |
| 04:05:48 | rue | Well, I suppose more of a semiorganized compile-time decision making thingy |
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| 04:16:02 | antares | rue: macros for what? |
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| 04:19:26 | rue | I dunno, I was thinking about compiling debug statements out or so |
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| 04:31:03 | antares | rue: given possible switch to C++ soon does it make sense to add C bells and whistles? :) |
| 04:33:28 | rue | I mean in Ruby |
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| 04:39:58 | antares | rue: then it may be useful |
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| 05:01:11 | antares | rue: I do not know how you are still staying awake, I'm going to have some sleep now. Bye :) |
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| 05:19:32 | boyscout | 2 commits by Eero Saynatkari |
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| 05:19:33 | boyscout | * Inter-VM Actor implementation for Rubinius' MVM by Tony Arcieri.; 6a78c65 |
| 05:19:34 | boyscout | * Tony Arcieri's specs for inter-VM Actors.; 12c639d |
| 05:19:43 | rue | tarcieri: ^^ |
| 05:20:23 | rue | tarcieri: I was actually wondering what your plan was with the Container vs. VMActor, there is quite a bit of overlap |
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| 05:30:11 | rubuildius_amd64 | Eero Saynatkari: 6a78c65b6; 1843 files, 6251 examples, 22308 expectations, 0 failures, 0 errors; http://rafb.net/p/8yJWPQ54.html |
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| 05:38:03 | rubuildius_ppc | Eero Saynatkari: 6a78c65b6; 1843 files, 6254 examples, 22337 expectations, 0 failures, 0 errors; http://pastie.caboo.se/paste/172690 |
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| 05:58:56 | rue | Interesting, my xbench clocked 148 |
| 06:08:53 | rue | OpenGL is killing my laptop, though, and that first uncached write :) |
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| 08:11:07 | rue | Alright, bedtime finally. Nighty nite. |
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| 12:44:57 | headius | yo |
| 12:45:36 | headius | how's the world of rubinius today |
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| 12:46:13 | antares | headius: sleepy I guess :) |
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| 12:49:03 | dbussink | i'm awake :) |
| 12:49:27 | headius | heheh |
| 12:49:36 | headius | sleep when you're dead |
| 12:49:52 | dbussink | guess rue is dead then :P |
| 12:50:14 | headius | I guess evan's on his way to copenhagen |
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| 12:51:43 | dbussink | yeah, quite a busy schedule for him |
| 12:51:57 | headius | conferences are quite a drain...hard to get stuff done |
| 12:52:02 | dbussink | yeah |
| 12:52:18 | dbussink | and we're all waiting for him to push his major reworkings |
| 12:52:20 | headius | tom and I usually try to travel together so we can still work |
| 12:52:28 | headius | yeah, do you know how that's going? |
| 12:52:49 | headius | it's been so quiet the past couple weeks |
| 12:53:27 | dbussink | yeah, well, he converted some stuff to c++ with some stl |
| 12:53:49 | dbussink | dunno about the specifics, but it was discussed here in one of the moments he was in |
| 12:54:04 | antares | headius: he is rewriting shotgun C part in C++ |
| 12:54:15 | headius | why? |
| 12:54:27 | dbussink | mainly because it made stuff simpler |
| 12:54:38 | dbussink | no need for internal self build hashes etc. |
| 12:54:47 | antares | headius: trying to get it modular and unit test C++. He also said it is easier back OO language VM in OO language |
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| 12:55:18 | antares | NoKarma: hey |
| 12:55:25 | NoKarma | antares: Hi |
| 12:55:36 | NoKarma | what's up? |
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| 12:56:10 | antares | headius: other than that I am trying to "port" blue book for rubinius, but in the very beginning |
| 12:57:12 | headius | I hope there's not going to be a ton of templating in rbx C++ source |
| 12:57:15 | headius | that's a hell of a rat hole to go down |
| 12:57:32 | NoKarma | why do we switch at all, btw? |
| 12:57:36 | headius | presumably just using stl for collections? |
| 12:58:04 | antares | headius: shotgun is relative simple and should get even simpler in OO language |
| 12:58:10 | dbussink | evan also hates templating over use, so we probably don't need to worry about that |
| 12:58:17 | antares | headius: probably, and better strings lib |
| 12:58:24 | dbussink | but indeed, stl for collections |
| 12:58:31 | headius | sitll seems like an odd move right now |
| 12:58:35 | headius | but I'm salty |
| 12:59:44 | antares | headius: many people already want to see bits of new C++ code so I am going to kindly ask evan to create a public repo for that branch :) |
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| 13:02:14 | headius | yeah, lots of unpushed offline changes scare the hell out of me |
| 13:02:23 | headius | I push everything almost immediately |
| 13:02:56 | dbussink | that's what i do too, but my changes are not that invasive :) |
| 13:03:12 | dbussink | if he's gutting shotgun, i can imagine not pushing it, although it could be pushed to another branch |
| 13:04:02 | antares | headius: I once lots 2 days changes because forgot to push them :) |
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| 13:23:16 | headius | back again! |
| 13:23:23 | headius | watching evan's MWRC talk |
| 13:23:59 | dbussink | i've watched that too yeah |
| 13:24:15 | headius | ya know, it would be nice if he stopped beating the "vm written in Ruby" drum when it's actually written in C |
| 13:24:31 | dbussink | well, he still sees it as a goal |
| 13:24:43 | dbussink | plus that in this talk the focus is more on the kernel |
| 13:24:51 | dbussink | wrt to the ruby part of rubinius |
| 13:25:09 | headius | but he uses that as though jruby and mri are somehow less cool because they're not written in ruby |
| 13:25:23 | headius | without telling everyone rubinius has almost as much C as Ruby |
| 13:25:36 | headius | as much C as Ruby code I mean |
| 13:25:39 | headius | not as much C as MRI |
| 13:26:06 | dbussink | he's abusing it as a lure :P |
| 13:26:17 | headius | I like watching evan speak, but he always goes down that path |
| 13:27:11 | headius | I could start making up falsehoods as lures too, but it seems a little gauche :) |
| 13:27:41 | headius | anyway, I'll shut up about it |
| 13:27:52 | dbussink | well, i've paid attention to it, but he always talks about the vm in ruby as a goal and the kernel as fact |
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| 13:34:42 | headius | goals are good |
| 13:35:02 | dbussink | yeah, but we're still heavily in the bootstrap phase :) |
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| 13:52:39 | wycats | hey headius |
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| 14:37:04 | NoKarma | heya |
| 14:37:47 | headius | howdy |
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| 16:11:43 | NoKarma enters the room. | |
| 16:11:53 | NoKarma | Heya all |
| 16:13:45 | dbussink | hi |
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| 16:36:10 | antares | a friend of mine at euruko talked to matz on CI and ruby specs plans... he seems to be not interested. One more interesting thing is that ko1 said he does not use ruby himself, he just develops the VM. If this is true then God save YARV... |
| 16:36:19 | antares leaves the room. | |
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| 16:57:01 | NoKarma | wow |
| 16:57:25 | NoKarma | antares: sounds scary, huh |
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| 16:58:29 | antares | NoKarma: no it does not. We have Rubinius. But I cannot get how good developers can stand this disorganization MRI and YARV expose... |
| 16:58:47 | antares | how can they update method signatures for instance without updating all call sites |
| 16:58:57 | ragnard enters the room. | |
| 16:58:57 | antares | this is why REXML is completely fucked up in p114 |
| 16:59:39 | antares | Ruby VM is probably a toy for Japanese guys, I do not get how one can go without CI for complex system in 21st century |
| 16:59:43 | rubbish leaves the room. | |
| 16:59:58 | ragnard leaves the room. | |
| 17:00:01 | NoKarma | antares: heh |
| 17:00:03 | srbaker enters the room. | |
| 17:00:27 | NoKarma | antares: Software has been developed without CI for ages, so that point lacks a bit |
| 17:01:00 | srbaker leaves the room. | |
| 17:01:04 | fbuilesv | NoKarma: hola |
| 17:01:07 | antares | NoKarma: people has been living without internet for centuries, should we completely abandon it? |
| 17:01:10 | NoKarma | fbuilesv: heya |
| 17:01:32 | fbuilesv | NoKarma: did you put the specs I was supposed to cover of did someone else do it? Those were exactly the ones I proposed :) |
| 17:01:44 | NoKarma | fbuilesv: I did :) |
| 17:01:48 | fbuilesv | NoKarma: ty :) |
| 17:02:05 | NoKarma | antares: no. But it's not correct to say that people who live nowadays without the use of computers are wrong or something like that |
| 17:03:00 | NoKarma | fbuilesv: I split the important libs into 2 groups |
| 17:03:11 | fbuilesv | NoKarma: antares does have a point with certain libs (like REXML as he points out) that everybody just skips becuase they're....curious. |
| 17:03:29 | antares | NoKarma: if the refuse using it because of "we've been living without it for years" reason this is not very smart, and just not reasonable |
| 17:03:44 | fbuilesv | NoKarma: Yes, I'm reading to see if maybe I should switch to cover 2 big ones and 2 small ones or something, but I still think that Yaml, Socket and IO have priority |
| 17:03:56 | NoKarma | fbuilesv: ok |
| 17:04:01 | GMFlash enters the room. | |
| 17:04:14 | antares | guys REXML is something we need to have spec-ed but it is being reorganized heavily in 1.8 branch now |
| 17:04:21 | antares | so it is a bad timing |
| 17:05:05 | fbuilesv | antares: do you think it'd be done by May? |
| 17:05:50 | antares | fbuilesv: I do not know. Ask at ruby-core. |
| 17:06:34 | fbuilesv | antares: wish I could get an answer from someone there about REXML. I sent the patches, they asked for tests, I sent the tests and no answer |
| 17:06:44 | NoKarma | fbuilesv: any idea on how many libraries we'll be able to cover? |
| 17:07:25 | antares | fbuilesv: I know. Ruby-core team is elite club it seems. Unless you are as famous as zenspider or pragdave you are ignored. |
| 17:07:33 | srbaker enters the room. | |
| 17:07:34 | fbuilesv | NoKarma: At the beginning I was thinking of 4 because my C-fu for Socket and IO is not great, but if with focus only on Ruby or if you're good at C you can probably cover a lot more |
| 17:08:15 | fbuilesv | NoKarma: but thinking about it, how much time do we have for this, 2 or 3 months? |
| 17:08:21 | NoKarma | 3 months |
| 17:08:30 | NoKarma | I think that's a whole lot time |
| 17:09:26 | NoKarma | but I think we should better focus on a small number of libs. We can do more if we get them done :) |
| 17:09:28 | fbuilesv | NoKarma: yes, we can probably cover more than 4 libs |
| 17:09:55 | fbuilesv | NoKarma: at first I thought of that too, but headius and cremes suggested to focus on stuff that we realyl need right now, that's why I decided to go for IO |
| 17:10:04 | antares | fbuilesv: GSoC ends in July or August, right? |
| 17:10:14 | fbuilesv | antares: not sure, looking right now |
| 17:10:50 | NoKarma | starts May 26 |
| 17:11:01 | NoKarma | and ends August 11 |
| 17:11:11 | fbuilesv | ya |
| 17:11:43 | NoKarma | fbuilesv: where are you from, by the way? |
| 17:11:49 | fbuilesv | NoKarma: Colombia, you? |
| 17:12:12 | NoKarma | fbuilesv: cool. I'm from Germany |
| 17:13:23 | fbuilesv | nice |
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| 17:15:00 | NoKarma | fbuilesv: Is there something else we have to do for monday? |
| 17:15:42 | fbuilesv | NoKarma: nah, I think that updating our proposals and letting pat know will be enough |
| 17:16:07 | NoKarma | well, I haven't updated it yet |
| 17:16:29 | fbuilesv | neither have I, with that time I think I'll add something more |
| 17:16:44 | NoKarma | heh |
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| 17:23:25 | agile | :q |
| 17:23:39 | fbuilesv | vi is that way ------> |
| 17:23:55 | NoKarma | haha |
| 17:24:05 | antares | :) |
| 17:24:23 | antares | uses both Emacs and Vim actually |
| 17:25:27 | chris2 | too |
| 17:26:10 | NoKarma | fbuilesv: I won't change my application directly, I think. A comment saying that we have been contacted by Pat and have evaluated stuff and split up the work should be enough. |
| 17:28:01 | fbuilesv | NoKarma: since I did specify lib by lib and I'm changing REXML for logger I think I'll have to clarify that |
| 17:28:09 | NoKarma | k |
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| 17:43:11 | dbussink | NoKarma: ah, where in germany? |
| 17:44:50 | thehcdreamer leaves the room. | |
| 17:45:02 | lvmc enters the room. | |
| 17:45:06 | lvmc | rue, |
| 17:45:14 | lvmc | on? |
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| 17:54:51 | NoKarma | dbussink: Tübingen :D |
| 17:55:48 | dbussink | NoKarma: ah, do they still speak german there? :P |
| 17:56:01 | NoKarma | dbussink: klar |
| 17:56:16 | dbussink | when i was in munich i had a hard time understanding them, and that was not because of my german ;) |
| 17:56:23 | NoKarma | hehe |
| 17:56:58 | dbussink | but good to have some more europeans here |
| 17:57:07 | NoKarma | yea :) |
| 17:57:33 | NoKarma | Europeans of all countries, unite! |
| 17:57:40 | NoKarma | or something like that |
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| 17:58:57 | lvmc | And Brazilian too ;) |
| 17:59:48 | dbussink | lvmc: you close to the us timezones ;) |
| 17:59:53 | dbussink | you're closer to |
| 18:00:42 | dbussink | NoKarma: you're at the university there? |
| 18:00:49 | djwhitt | Europe isn't too bad as far as compatibility with US timezones |
| 18:00:54 | NoKarma | I'm starting in October |
| 18:01:00 | djwhitt | it's when you get to India and China that things start to get weird |
| 18:01:07 | djwhitt | and Australia |
| 18:01:23 | djwhitt | people waking up when you're going to bed etc. |
| 18:01:25 | fbuilesv | lvmc: where in Brazil? |
| 18:01:33 | lvmc | São Paulo |
| 18:01:39 | dbussink | djwhitt: i'm busy during the daytime, so that makes is fairly easy indeed |
| 18:01:50 | NoKarma | same here |
| 18:01:55 | dbussink | NoKarma: ah, what are you going to study? |
| 18:02:08 | fbuilesv | lvmc: nice |
| 18:02:13 | lvmc | I study eletrical engineer ;) |
| 18:02:22 | lvmc | and you? |
| 18:02:25 | NoKarma | "Angewandte Informatik", I think that's "Aplied Computer Science" or something like that in Englisch |
| 18:02:28 | NoKarma | *English |
| 18:02:41 | dbussink | i can understand that :P |
| 18:02:49 | NoKarma | woo, Typos all over :D |
| 18:03:02 | dbussink | germany is only 5 km's from here |
| 18:03:03 | NoKarma | dbussink: well, you may, but the others here won't :D |
| 18:03:19 | NoKarma | dbussink: where's "here"? |
| 18:03:31 | dbussink | and my parents live close to the border too, when i was young we had three dutch and three german tv stations |
| 18:03:35 | dbussink | NoKarma: enschede |
| 18:03:49 | dbussink | always fun to watch a movie that was translated |
| 18:03:56 | dbussink | "die Nahme is Bond, James Bond" |
| 18:04:05 | dbussink | just sooo wrong |
| 18:04:25 | NoKarma | ok, what language is that supposed to be? |
| 18:04:42 | dbussink | that had to be ist, sorry :P |
| 18:05:03 | dbussink | or der Nahme, i never know those |
| 18:05:06 | NoKarma | ok, that's still not German |
| 18:05:16 | NoKarma | lol |
| 18:05:29 | NoKarma | "Mein Name ist Bond, James Bond" :P |
| 18:05:42 | NoKarma | but it was close |
| 18:05:59 | dbussink | i can make myself understandable in german, imho that suffices :P |
| 18:06:14 | NoKarma | lol |
| 18:06:15 | dbussink | but that's mostly spoken, i never have to write german |
| 18:06:28 | dbussink | en if you speak it, you can mess more up before it becomes a problem |
| 18:06:46 | dbussink | argh, even know the thinking in different languages messes up my typing |
| 18:07:06 | djwhitt | hehe |
| 18:07:17 | djwhitt | <-- stupid American only know one language |
| 18:07:24 | djwhitt | *knows |
| 18:07:30 | djwhitt | and can't even type in that one ;) |
| 18:09:20 | dbussink | for me it's 3 or 4, depending on what you mean by knowing a language ;) |
| 18:09:36 | djwhitt | yeah, well, I supposedly learned some French in high school, but it didn't work |
| 18:10:29 | djwhitt | I think I can still tell people I don't know French and ask where the bathrooms are, but that's about it |
| 18:10:35 | dbussink | well, i learned some too and it's not that good anymore, but when i'm in france it usually resurfaces reasonably fast |
| 18:11:04 | dbussink | and i really experienced the huge difference between knowing the basics and knowing nothing when i was in spain and italy |
| 18:11:57 | NoKarma | fbuilesv: I think I'll cover 2 or 3 of the smaller libs, too |
| 18:12:27 | NoKarma | fbuilesv: TmpDir and Tempfile are almost nothing |
| 18:12:30 | fbuilesv | NoKarma: cool, I just added logger there and if I have time I'll follow the suggestion to check out other implementation's test suites and port some of that to mspec |
| 18:12:42 | NoKarma | cool |
| 18:13:55 | NoKarma | fbuilesv: Last thing we got to do is to hope we'll be working together on the Specs by May 26 :) |
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| 18:14:18 | fbuilesv | NoKarma: that'd be awesome, let's hope we get in :) |
| 18:14:30 | antares | NoKarma: you can work together whatever RubyCentral guys decision is :) |
| 18:14:57 | NoKarma | yes, but it would be different, to say at least |
| 18:16:02 | NoKarma | antares: I wouldn't be able to invest as much time, as I'd have to search for another job |
| 18:17:25 | fbuilesv | bah, I don't really care, right now PHP work help pays the [few] bills I have :) |
| 18:19:12 | NoKarma | eeek, PHP |
| 18:21:23 | jacen | php kills little kitten |
| 18:22:36 | fbuilesv | during the week days when I'm not studying I have to deal with PHP and C++, believe me, I feel pleasure when I finally get the chance to work with Ruby :) |
| 18:23:18 | dbussink | glad i can choose my own stuff :) |
| 18:23:34 | antares | dbussink: me too |
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| 18:24:37 | jacen | i dropped all php-clients |
| 18:24:43 | jacen | not worth my nerves |
| 18:24:58 | jacen | i've seen the light, i can't go back ;) |
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| 18:43:11 | rue | Morning or so |
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| 18:46:35 | fbuilesv | rue: so, you do sleep after all... |
| 18:47:32 | djwhitt | don't believe it |
| 18:48:16 | rue | Occasionally |
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| 18:49:10 | djwhitt | odd... I figured you had sold your soul for coding powers and the imunnity from the need to sleep |
| 18:49:46 | rue | No, coding powers and apple juice |
| 18:49:54 | djwhitt | ah, gotcha |
| 18:50:08 | djwhitt | apple juice is pretty tasty... |
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| 19:02:38 | rue | Well, Infernal Apple Juice is pretty good |
| 19:04:38 | rue | It is made from fiendish apples |
| 19:06:19 | rue | Be back after some solving some Professor Layton |
| 19:08:55 | fbuilesv | rue: calculus is not your friend, run. |
| 19:13:05 | antares | rue: hey |
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| 19:19:08 | lvmc | hey rue |
| 19:19:22 | lvmc | today is the lastest day to send GSoC proposal. |
| 19:19:31 | lvmc | and i won`t send it. |
| 19:19:49 | lvmc | i prefer get very involved with mod_rubinius |
| 19:19:57 | lvmc | and at the next year i submit it |
| 19:20:06 | lvmc | the project will be more mature |
| 19:24:14 | rue | lvmc: Hey |
| 19:24:28 | lvmc | how are you? |
| 19:24:44 | rue | Yes, it will probably be easier to estimate what is needed when there is some infrastructure in place |
| 19:25:13 | lvmc | rue, can i get more involved with mod_rubinius |
| 19:25:26 | lvmc | i wan`t to know what you are thinking and doing |
| 19:28:11 | lvmc | rue, you know anythin about modrails? |
| 19:28:31 | antares | I wish someone was as excited about Shotgun guts :D |
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| 19:28:53 | NoKarma | heh |
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| 20:12:14 | NoKarma | wow |
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| 20:17:16 | rue | lvmc: Not much, only the general idea they are using. |
| 20:17:34 | lvmc | rue, i think it will be proprietary software |
| 20:17:54 | lvmc | is very stupid don`t release the codes today |
| 20:18:23 | rue | With m_r, I am not quite at the point to seek contributions yet. I was originally planning that around start of May |
| 20:18:47 | rue | Away for a while |
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| 20:41:59 | antares | lvmc: before you say something is stupid consider doing it BY YOURSELF first |
| 20:42:16 | lvmc | antares, you need to know the context. |
| 20:42:19 | antares | lvmc: so you know how difficult it is |
| 20:42:57 | lvmc | is stupid show a delicious apple to you, offer to you, and i eat it. |
| 20:43:25 | lvmc | the project is wonderfull, rails really need it |
| 20:43:37 | antares | lvmc: I really don't need to. When you ask person working on research release something today, it is not very smart and definitely shows you have never been in that person's shoes before. |
| 20:43:38 | lvmc | we need it and i will the first people to congratulations the developer. |
| 20:43:42 | antares | lvmc: go do it |
| 20:43:55 | lvmc | i`m doing it. |
| 20:44:00 | antares | lvmc: if you are so fucking smart you tell people names, why haven't you already done it? |
| 20:44:26 | antares | lvmc: so do it without bold statements like that. You won't be tolerated. |
| 20:44:33 | lvmc | man you are getting confused. |
| 20:45:02 | antares | lvmc: oh c'mon. Just STFU every time you want to say things like "this is stupid". |
| 20:45:04 | lvmc | i only say: "release software without open-source codes sounds stupid today" |
| 20:45:10 | djwhitt | umm... not sure an argument is really called for here |
| 20:45:16 | kevinclark | hey, kids. it'll be ok |
| 20:45:19 | djwhitt | I suggest you both drop it |
| 20:45:24 | antares | djwhitt: agreed |
| 20:45:25 | kevinclark | djwhitt++ |
| 20:45:30 | lvmc | djwhitt, thanks! |
| 20:45:37 | djwhitt | hehe, any time :) |
| 20:46:17 | lvmc | and it`s stupid FOR ME! not for you! ;) |
| 20:47:39 | FoobarWidget | oh damn and i just wanted to bring out the flame throwers :p |
| 20:47:54 | lvmc | lol |
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| 22:49:28 | tarcieri | this place really needs !seen or something |
| 22:49:38 | tarcieri | but scrolling up, it looks like rue is gone |
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| 23:46:15 | antares | could someone please describe CompiledMethod#serial briefly? :) |
| 23:47:41 | agardiner | it used to just be the version number of a method on a class |
| 23:47:54 | agardiner | so if you re-opened a class and redefined a method, it would be incremented |
| 23:48:06 | agardiner | it still works this way for user code, I believe |
| 23:48:19 | agardiner | but for kernel land code, the serial is always 0 |
| 23:48:34 | agardiner | (I think user land code starts at serial 1) |
| 23:49:26 | agardiner | the serial number used to be used when determining if a cache entry was valid, when inline caching was used (i.e. before SendSite) |
| 23:49:52 | antares | agardiner: so kernel methods cannot be redefined? |
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| 23:50:15 | agardiner | they can... |
| 23:50:22 | antares | agardiner: you are perfect source of documentation that I write... :) |
| 23:50:28 | agardiner | but i think if you do that, they will end up with a serial of 1 |
| 23:50:34 | agardiner | hehe |
| 23:50:50 | antares | agardiner: so why kernel methods always have serial of 0? |
| 23:50:55 | antares | to distinguish them? |
| 23:51:30 | agardiner | yeah, a serial of 0 means it was defined in kernel (i think it is a compiler switch that is set for kernel land that causes a serial of 0 to be used) |
| 23:51:41 | agardiner | i don't know if any code relies on this at present |
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| 23:52:49 | agardiner | lots of "i thinks" in there, so you might want to check the source... |
| 23:53:22 | antares | agardiner: CM#required is number of required arguments to method, bytecodes is iSeq, compiled is byte array with optcodes, what are lines and exceptions? |
| 23:53:24 | agardiner | unfortunately, this area has changed a fair bit over the last few months |
| 23:53:36 | agardiner | ok |
| 23:53:52 | agardiner | first up, compiled is not quite what you described |
| 23:54:06 | agardiner | it is a reference to the compiled bytecode |
| 23:54:12 | antares | agardiner: ok, that's what I see in irb :) |
| 23:54:13 | agardiner | what happens is the compiler generates bytecode that is stored in bytecode |
| 23:54:32 | antares | #bytecodes you mean? |
| 23:54:42 | agardiner | and then when the CM is loaded by shotgun, it creates a "compiled" copy of the bytecode |
| 23:54:44 | agardiner | yeah |
| 23:54:54 | agardiner | the compilation it does is pretty basic |
| 23:55:27 | agardiner | just converts to the native word size of the platform, and replaces opcodes with addresses of opcode implementation if direct threading is enabled |
| 23:55:29 | antares | agardiner: so compiled is what VM uses when it gets result of compilation from the compiler? |
| 23:55:53 | antares | agardiner: aha, so it is byte array of pointers to optcodes |
| 23:55:55 | agardiner | not really... compiled is perhaps a misleading term |
| 23:56:07 | antares | agardiner: probably |
| 23:56:18 | agardiner | the compiler generates bytecode, which is stored and persisted in .rbc |
| 23:56:38 | agardiner | the compiled field on CM is only populated when a method is loaded in Shotgun |
| 23:56:49 | agardiner | it is a platform specific version of the bytecode |
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| 23:57:39 | agardiner | it used to be that the bytecode field was used directly by Shotgun |
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| 23:57:58 | antares | agardiner: ok, mostly got it. how about lines and exceptions? |
| 23:58:37 | agardiner | but it was decided it was better to have an internal representation that was optimised for the platform |
| 23:58:58 | agardiner | this also allows experimentation with things like fusion or context threading |
| 23:59:28 | agardiner | and also JIT, without losing the "source" (i.e. the bytecodes) |
| 23:59:58 | agardiner | lines is a tuple of tuples |
| 00:00:13 | agardiner | the inner tuples consist of three values: low IP, high IP, source line |
| 00:00:31 | agardiner | so, it is used to identify the source line that relates to one or more opcodes |
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| 00:01:05 | agardiner | exceptions is another tuple of tuples |
| 00:01:31 | antares | low and hight IP bound instructions of method or single line? I guess the latter. |
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| 00:02:09 | agardiner | well, a tuple in lines might be [0, 5, 118] |
| 00:02:30 | agardiner | this means that instruction pointer values 0-5 are from source line 118 |
| 00:02:46 | agardiner | note that 0-5 is the IP, so this might actually be just two opcodes |
| 00:03:36 | antares | agardiner: mind if I move on with questions on CM? |
| 00:03:42 | agardiner | not at all |
| 00:04:33 | antares | agardiner: local count is number of local variables method uses. Does Rubinius use temporary frame the way bluebook describes? |
| 00:05:08 | agardiner | i'm not familiar with the temporary frame you are referring to... |
| 00:05:20 | agardiner | i can explain what locals is used for though :-) |
| 00:05:33 | agardiner | or local_count even! |
| 00:05:55 | antares | agardiner: go ahead :) |
| 00:06:15 | agardiner | local_count indicates how many locals are required in the context when it is allocated |
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| 00:06:46 | antares | agardiner: what I mean is some instructions (push and send) refer to slots in a special area called temporary frame. This is how local variables are stored and addressed in the VM blue book describes |
| 00:06:48 | agardiner | so, if a CM uses 3 locals, these will (at present) all be allocated in the context when the method is executed |
| 00:06:58 | agardiner | ah, ok |
| 00:07:05 | agardiner | well, shotgun used to do this |
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| 00:07:27 | agardiner | and in that case, the locals were stored on the stack |
| 00:07:56 | agardiner | but, this was removed becuase it complicated things and didn't improve performance noticeably |
| 00:09:19 | agardiner | it used to be that locals could be stored in up to three different places |
| 00:09:35 | agardiner | 1) in the caller's stack frame |
| 00:09:41 | agardiner | 2) in the callee stack frame |
| 00:09:58 | agardiner | or 3) in a locals tuple stored in the context |
| 00:10:12 | agardiner | now, all locals are stored in slots in the context |
| 00:10:16 | antares | agardiner: now I get how variables shadowing works :) |
| 00:10:33 | agardiner | hehe, yeah |
| 00:11:20 | antares | agardiner: ok back to exceptions. It is a tuple of tuples. What inner tuples contain? |
| 00:11:37 | agardiner | i knew you'd ask that :-) |
| 00:12:01 | agardiner | i'm gonna check, but off the top of my head, i think it is low IP, high IP, symbol of exception class |
| 00:12:25 | antares | agardiner: exceptions that were raised during method execution? |
| 00:12:38 | agardiner | this is the exception table for exceptions that are handled within a method |
| 00:13:00 | agardiner | i.e. it is for rescue clauses, i believe |
| 00:14:31 | antares | agardiner: hm, so VM looks up the exception, if it is handled it knows where to head from low IP? |
| 00:15:03 | agardiner | that's basically it |
| 00:15:04 | antares | agardiner: I wander how exception say in method body is distinguished from exception handled in control structure like if |
| 00:15:20 | agardiner | well, the IP bounds tell you that |
| 00:15:47 | antares | agardiner: aha, so we get context IP and lookup this tuple |
| 00:15:59 | agardiner | essentially, if an exception is raised in the VM, it looks in the exceptions tuple to see if there is a handler for the current IP in the exception table |
| 00:16:05 | agardiner | yeah |
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| 00:16:53 | agardiner | hmm... just checked, and the exceptions inner tuple is a tuple of three IPs |
| 00:17:00 | agardiner | first, last, and handler |
| 00:17:10 | antares | agardiner: ok, moving on. File is a path to file this method defined in, right? |
| 00:17:17 | agardiner | yep |
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| 00:17:19 | antares | agardiner: from what we said recently it makes sense :) |
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| 00:17:44 | agardiner | i think the handler bytecode checks the class of the exception, and determines if it is handled |
| 00:18:00 | agardiner | so, there could be overlapping ranges |
| 00:18:05 | antares | agardiner: I am thinking of how to describe literals tuple in docs better... |
| 00:18:30 | antares | agardiner: blue book uses pretty meaningless and confusing statement: references to objects that bytecodes cannot directly refer to |
| 00:18:45 | agardiner | yeah, that's not real clear |
| 00:19:15 | antares | agardiner: ok, what is CM#path? |
| 00:19:19 | agardiner | i think it is easiest to describe it as a tuple containing literal values from the source, such as string literals |
| 00:19:49 | agardiner | plus some other stuff added during compilation (SendSites, CompiledMethods, Regexps etc) |
| 00:20:53 | agardiner | i don't believe path is used |
| 00:21:11 | agardiner | i *think* it was replaced by staticscope |
| 00:21:19 | antares | agardiner: hm, do not get how compiled methods and regexps can be useful for compiled method. Regexps are objects created from their literals I guess. |
| 00:21:22 | antares | let me look it up |
| 00:21:24 | agardiner | ... er maybe that was scope?!? |
| 00:21:59 | agardiner | yeah, Regexps are created from literal regexps, e.g. /foo/ |
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| 00:22:26 | agardiner | a slot is assigned in the literals tuple for the Regexp, but it isn't instantiated until runtime |
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| 00:23:04 | antares | agardiner: what is cache? |
| 00:23:12 | agardiner | CompiledMethod literals are for compiled methods defined inside another |
| 00:23:38 | agardiner | e.g. when you compile a file, you get one CompiledMethod for the top-level code |
| 00:23:45 | agardiner | and that code may define classes and methods |
| 00:23:48 | antares | agardiner: ah I see, we can define method in method in Ruby, right |
| 00:24:21 | antares | agardiner: that top level method has name of __script__ or something? |
| 00:24:37 | agardiner | yes to both |
| 00:25:00 | antares | so, what I might forget to ask about... |
| 00:25:08 | agardiner | if you run a script with the -debug flag, and then do a decode, you can see how this works |
| 00:25:16 | antares | required is number of required arguments |
| 00:25:18 | agardiner | cache is not used any longer |
| 00:25:42 | agardiner | it was for the old inline caching mechanism, which was superseded by SendSites |
| 00:25:54 | agardiner | yes to required |
| 00:26:03 | antares | agardiner: ok. args is array of optcode arguments as existing doc states |
| 00:26:24 | antares | agardiner: static scope is StaticScope representing lexical scope in source... |
| 00:26:24 | agardiner | ah, no |
| 00:26:38 | agardiner |