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| 03:17:05 | mae | what is up my frend |
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| 03:29:16 | brixen | hrm, what's up bots |
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| 03:31:03 | zenspider | ok. ... I just spent the whole afternoon entirely rewriting the rakefile |
| 03:31:06 | zenspider | UGH |
| 03:31:34 | rubuildius_ey64 enters the room. | |
| 03:31:59 | zenspider | it should be a lot lot lot better now |
| 03:32:06 | zenspider | real dependencies, in fact. :P |
| 03:32:06 | brixen | sweet |
| 03:32:38 | zenspider | so if you go f' with ar.cpp, it'll actually rebuild properly... |
| 03:32:54 | brixen | instead of the whole damn thing? |
| 03:33:14 | zenspider | yesterday's changes dealt with externals properly... but I noticed today that modifying any of OUR actual sources didn't do a damn thing if vm/vm existed |
| 03:33:17 | zenspider | :( |
| 03:33:22 | zenspider | instead of nothing |
| 03:33:30 | brixen | ahh, it does if you modify .hpp files |
| 03:33:34 | brixen | at least it was for me |
| 03:33:35 | zenspider | and... of course... git isn't working. le fucking sigh |
| 03:33:51 | zenspider | yeah. probably. |
| 03:34:00 | rubuildius_amd64 leaves the room. | |
| 03:34:01 | zenspider | I only touched ar.cpp as a test |
| 03:34:06 | zenspider | and rake just sat there |
| 03:34:08 | brixen | ah ok |
| 03:34:21 | zenspider | I also made the dependency generator work ... normally. |
| 03:34:38 | zenspider | uses makedepend now and doesn't marshal up the results... makes a makefile which we import |
| 03:35:02 | rubuildius_amd64 enters the room. | |
| 03:35:20 | zenspider | is the git server down or something?!? |
| 03:35:58 | brixen | yeah, seems to be |
| 03:36:01 | zenspider | I can ping it... |
| 03:36:02 | rubuildius_ey64 leaves the room. | |
| 03:36:08 | zenspider | fuck |
| 03:36:14 | brixen | that must be what's making the bots go wonky |
| 03:36:28 | zenspider | yeah. prolly |
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| 03:36:45 | brixen | yep, getting /timeout.rb:54:in `rbuf_fill': execution expired (Timeout::Error) |
| 03:36:58 | zenspider | at least when the server goes down on us once the ci bot is in place it'll not bother us. :) |
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| 03:37:04 | zenspider | it'll be down too |
| 03:37:04 | brixen | heh |
| 03:37:14 | tarcieri | ugh timeout.rb |
| 03:38:10 | tarcieri | I really wonder what kind of crack the people who wrote Ruby's IO originally were smoking |
| 03:38:11 | zenspider | I just SMS'd evan... not that HE can do anything about it... but maybe he has others who can |
| 03:38:22 | brixen | ah cool, I was just about to |
| 03:38:50 | zenspider | tarcieri: I think it is great |
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| 03:39:15 | tarcieri | creating a new thread for every X bytes you read just to implement a timeout? |
| 03:39:58 | zenspider | brixen: he's not near a computer, but is now aware... also, his phone doesn't let him swear. :) |
| 03:40:02 | zenspider | "shot" |
| 03:40:02 | tarcieri | not to mention MRI/YARV are intractably tied to select() and it pervades the internals |
| 03:40:04 | zenspider | haha |
| 03:40:33 | tarcieri | fortunately Rubinius will solve all of that, although it's been solved to a lesser extent on MRI/YARV by EventMachine (and Rev :) |
| 03:41:52 | tarcieri | Scheduler / Channels are an awesome abstraction, particularly since Scheduler can be a proactor |
| 03:41:58 | zenspider | I love how git pull just fucking sits there forever... |
| 03:42:06 | tarcieri | haha |
| 03:42:07 | brixen | zenspider: heh, maybe it's the proximity to the canadian border exerting phonetic influences on pronunciation |
| 03:42:21 | tarcieri | zenspider: okay, in that regard, timeout.rb wins :) |
| 03:42:29 | tarcieri | can't help other people's shitty C code |
| 03:43:03 | headius | thing I don't get is why rbuf_fill doesn't just select with a timeout |
| 03:43:08 | zenspider | god that tool is just the worst. and oddly I'm one of the very few who hates it... I guess people git what they deserve |
| 03:43:13 | tarcieri | headius: exactly... or |
| 03:43:14 | headius | I tried that and it works just as well |
| 03:43:29 | tarcieri | heh |
| 03:43:47 | zenspider | (I'm so punny) |
| 03:43:48 | tarcieri | yeah that's the traditional approach to solving it, particularly if you DON'T have to multiplex or deal with multiple timeouts |
| 03:44:49 | tarcieri | headius: heh, so JRuby uses native threads for Thread, right? |
| 03:44:54 | headius | yes |
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| 03:45:09 | tarcieri | headius: so every like... 1000 bytes anything that uses net/protocol reads |
| 03:45:12 | tarcieri | it makes a native thread? |
| 03:45:16 | headius | yes |
| 03:45:19 | tarcieri | lulz |
| 03:45:20 | tarcieri | rofl |
| 03:45:23 | headius | I know |
| 03:45:38 | headius | keep meaning to replace that |
| 03:45:38 | headius | JVM does pool a lot of thread resources though |
| 03:45:42 | tarcieri | that's cool |
| 03:45:46 | tarcieri | Scala does the same thing |
| 03:45:48 | tarcieri | with moderate success |
| 03:46:10 | headius | oh, we have that as well, -J-Djruby.thread.pool.enabled=true will share the native side of it |
| 03:46:19 | headius | still a lot of JRuby runtime stuff that's re-created though |
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| 03:46:42 | tarcieri | headius: the JVM seems to be trying to push the shared state threaded model to its limits |
| 03:46:49 | headius | it's not bad though |
| 03:47:07 | headius | 1000.times { Thread.new { }.join } runs in about 1s, including about .5s JRuby startup |
| 03:47:19 | tarcieri | it's not bad, no, but Scala swaps stacks with a performance an order of magnitude less than Erlang |
| 03:47:28 | tarcieri | i.e. doing a "ping pong" benchmark |
| 03:47:51 | tarcieri | but that's okay, because both Rubinius and Revactor are an order of magnitude less than Scala |
| 03:48:04 | tarcieri | so in the end that's not too shabby and Erlang is just absurd |
| 03:48:06 | headius | scala's far from as good as it could be |
| 03:48:10 | tarcieri | yeah |
| 03:48:20 | tarcieri | I don't think the JVM was a good choice for a language like Scala |
| 03:48:48 | headius | I think there's tradeoffs in both cases |
| 03:48:49 | headius | erland is slow |
| 03:48:51 | headius | g |
| 03:48:59 | ezmobius | my uncle's name is erland |
| 03:49:00 | tarcieri | slow at what, though? |
| 03:49:01 | tarcieri | heh |
| 03:49:13 | headius | nothing scales both ways perfectly |
| 03:49:23 | tarcieri | yeah |
| 03:49:43 | tarcieri | and in the end, Erlang/HiPE isn't that slow |
| 03:50:01 | tarcieri | it's faster than: Python, Perl, PHP, Ruby |
| 03:50:07 | tarcieri | at least according to shootout.alioth |
| 03:50:21 | zenspider | headius: compared to mri's 0.019s ? |
| 03:50:24 | tarcieri | I mean, granted, it's nowhere close to the JVM on sequential cstuff :) |
| 03:50:41 | headius | zenspider: so what? |
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| 03:51:30 | zenspider | granted, it is pathologically stupid code... but you said that it wasn't bad. I'd say that .5 seconds for 1000 is pretty bad. |
| 03:51:34 | tarcieri | hmm, actually Psyco is beating HiPE now |
| 03:51:36 | zenspider | 1m iterations on mri is 6.7s |
| 03:52:15 | headius | so it spins up threads faster, so what? |
| 03:52:59 | zenspider | *shrug* I guess your bar for "not bad" is lower than mine... that's all. |
| 03:53:24 | headius | not bad for full native concurrency |
| 03:53:41 | zenspider | uh huh |
| 03:53:58 | tarcieri | MRI's thread scheduler is some of the most atrocious C code I've ever read |
| 03:54:10 | zenspider | there is no full native concurrency in that code. |
| 03:54:16 | tarcieri | what MRI gains in thread creation is totally lost in the scheduling penalty |
| 03:54:18 | zenspider | tarcieri: well... that's just masochistic. :P |
| 03:54:20 | headius | zenspider: I don't know why you ever bother talking to me, all you ever do is dump |
| 03:55:43 | jackdempsey enters the room. | |
| 03:55:50 | zenspider | <censored response> |
| 03:55:58 | headius | typical |
| 03:56:05 | headius | at least you're consistent |
| 03:56:05 | jackdempsey | lol |
| 03:56:20 | tarcieri | heh |
| 03:56:30 | zenspider | jackdempsey: GAH! my jr high school disciplinarian had your name |
| 03:56:39 | jackdempsey | uhoh |
| 03:56:41 | tarcieri | anyone here ever look at rb_thread_select() and rb_thread_schedule()? |
| 03:56:56 | jackdempsey | slowly hides the ruler |
| 03:56:59 | tarcieri | you'd think the former would handle I/O and the latter would handle thread scheduling exclusively |
| 03:56:59 | tarcieri | BUT NO |
| 03:57:02 | tarcieri | both handle I/O scheduling |
| 03:57:25 | zenspider | jackdempsey: ruler?!? he had a huge paddle with holes drilled in it |
| 03:57:55 | jackdempsey | damn, straight out of animal house huh |
| 04:00:27 | zenspider | but not nearly as funny |
| 04:00:45 | heissund1ettig leaves the room. | |
| 04:00:53 | zenspider | course... he was being not funny to me for a reason. :P |
| 04:01:47 | jackdempsey | hehehe |
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| 06:17:16 | chad | headius: you there |
| 06:17:17 | chad | ? |
| 06:17:23 | headius | always |
| 06:17:28 | chad | tell me about your standing workstation |
| 06:19:05 | headius | I just stacked a small coffee table up on a normal table and it was about the right height |
| 06:19:33 | chad | how does it feel to use? |
| 06:19:55 | zenspider | chad: talk to gianni... his desk is rad |
| 06:19:55 | tarcieri | hey headius |
| 06:19:57 | headius | actually it's not bad...I tend to pace a bit when I'm thinking anyway, so this makes it easier to stroll back |
| 06:20:01 | tarcieri | have you ever looked at Jinterface |
| 06:20:10 | headius | tarcieri: checking |
| 06:20:14 | chad | zenspider: cool will do |
| 06:20:31 | headius | tarcieri: ahh, nope, sure haven't |
| 06:20:31 | chad | i'm thinking i would like this standing desk thing |
| 06:20:36 | tarcieri | headius: it's Erlang interoperability for Java, including the Erlang wire protocol |
| 06:20:43 | headius | yup, found it |
| 06:20:52 | ezmobius leaves the room. | |
| 06:21:13 | zenspider | chad: I like the idea... and I've done it a bit at vivace when at the counters |
| 06:21:24 | zenspider | but in practice... I get in the zone more when sitting |
| 06:21:36 | tarcieri | headius: I'd really love to see multiple Ruby implementations talking the Erlang wire protocol |
| 06:21:37 | headius | tarcieri: probably would be pretty easy to wire into jruby |
| 06:21:53 | tarcieri | headius: yeah, it'd be shit simple to wire into JRuby in comparison... |
| 06:22:00 | headius | easy like just instantiate and call |
| 06:22:01 | chad | i think i'll try something temporary like headius first |
| 06:22:22 | tarcieri | headius: elsewhere it'd be a total reimplementation :/ |
| 06:22:43 | tarcieri | headius: the nice thing would be if it got wired into JRuby I could spec it out before trying to reimplement from scratch |
| 06:22:45 | headius | yeah, that's one nice thing on java platform...there's a library for everything |
| 06:22:54 | headius | right, oughta be fine |
| 06:22:58 | zenspider | chad: I had a couple coworkers at amzn doing it... since the desks were all doors on 4x4s it was cheap and easy to switch to standing |
| 06:23:05 | headius | you could get a basic API wired up with this backin git |
| 06:23:12 | headius | backing it |
| 06:23:52 | tarcieri | headius: Rubinius doesn't quite have all the requisite dependencies I'd need for it anyway |
| 06:23:59 | zenspider | chad: gianni's setup is plush, but prolly expensive |
| 06:24:28 | tarcieri | headius: I'd really love to build distributed systems which incorporate both Ruby and Erlang |
| 06:24:52 | headius | is there a standalone C impl of the wire protocol? |
| 06:24:52 | chad | expensive is worth it for a desk |
| 06:25:07 | tarcieri | headius: particularly if there were a common Erlang-style Actor object protocol on both JRuby and Rubinius... I mean, it already exists on YARV (Revactor) and MRI (omnibus) |
| 06:25:16 | tarcieri | headius: not that I'm aware of |
| 06:25:24 | headius | chad: expensive means it will probably be adjustable to your height, which I think is pretty important |
| 06:25:31 | zenspider | chad: totally... but not if you're not totally into it yet. |
| 06:25:34 | tarcieri | and of course Rubinius has a it... |
| 06:25:40 | tarcieri | s/a// |
| 06:25:40 | headius | there's less wiggle room for too high or too low when you're standing |
| 06:25:42 | tarcieri | bleh |
| 06:25:56 | chad | zenspider/headius: yea |
| 06:25:58 | chad | good points |
| 06:26:03 | headius | but if you get lucky a makeshift setup will be fine |
| 06:26:10 | chad | sorry to turn this into #ergonimius |
| 06:26:15 | headius | my brother just flipped his boxy desk on its side |
| 06:26:24 | tarcieri | headius: have you thought about doing a thread pool-backed Actor implementation ala Scala? |
| 06:26:41 | headius | tarcieri: absolutely have thought about it |
| 06:26:47 | tarcieri | sweet |
| 06:26:55 | headius | always so much else to do though |
| 06:26:59 | tarcieri | heh |
| 06:27:00 | headius | we've only got two fulltime folks on jruby |
| 06:27:23 | tarcieri | headius: I'd love to see a common Node abstraction between JRuby/Rubinius/etc. |
| 06:27:39 | tarcieri | headius: particularly if it could interoperate with Erlang and Scala |
| 06:27:49 | heissund1ettig enters the room. | |
| 06:28:06 | yasuhito enters the room. | |
| 06:28:07 | tarcieri | I mean, that's what KirinDave was trying to do with Fuzed |
| 06:28:10 | tarcieri | but... less specialized |
| 06:28:39 | headius | yeah, I don't see why not |
| 06:28:56 | headius | nice thing about JRuby for prototyping this is you can just write ruby to call that lib |
| 06:29:14 | headius | pretty easy to make a little OTP shim layer that way |
| 06:29:20 | tarcieri | yeah I've never tried any of the Java interfacing stuff with JRuby |
| 06:29:46 | headius | be forewarned, the java integration stuff works great but it's a little slow at times...years of cruft |
| 06:29:48 | headius | I'm actually working on that right now |
| 06:29:59 | headius | ought to be plenty fine for prototyping though |
| 06:31:18 | tarcieri | you ever done any stuff with Quartz and JRuby? |
| 06:31:33 | headius | I haven't but I know others have |
| 06:31:54 | tarcieri | I'd really like to move all our batch jobs off cron |
| 06:31:58 | tarcieri | they're kind of getting out-of-hand |
| 06:32:01 | headius | you could probably poke arond here and find some good stuff |
| 06:32:01 | headius | http://wiki.jruby.org/wiki/Main_Page |
| 06:32:30 | headius | pretty organic, but almost all of it is community-driven |
| 06:32:50 | headius | this is pretty good: http://wiki.jruby.org/wiki/Calling_Java_from_JRuby |
| 06:32:55 | headius | basics of it all |
| 06:33:22 | tarcieri | I was googling around for Quartz + Ruby but most of the stuff I found was using rjb |
| 06:33:41 | headius | anything else we probably should take to #jruby :) |
| 06:33:47 | tarcieri | heh |
| 06:34:41 | zenspider | srsly... get a room. :P |
| 06:34:51 | tarcieri | lulz |
| 06:35:14 | blakewatters enters the room. | |
| 06:35:39 | tarcieri | if Erlang, JRuby, |
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| 06:35:51 | tarcieri | Rubinius, Scala, and Java... all spoke a common Actor protocl |
| 06:35:56 | tarcieri | that'd be so powerful |
| 06:36:21 | tarcieri | it'd be like Thrift, but... fail less |
| 06:37:32 | tarcieri | we're using Thrift now, but... bleh |
| 06:38:45 | headius | I don't know thrift |
| 06:39:28 | heissundfettig leaves the room. | |
| 06:39:29 | tarcieri | Thrift is trying to be a lowest common denominator wire protocol for multiple languages |
| 06:39:58 | tarcieri | but they really didn't have distributed computing systems in mind the way the Erlang wire protocol does |
| 06:40:00 | zenspider | is it better than banana? |
| 06:40:15 | binary42 enters the room. | |
| 06:40:21 | headius | is this the facebook thing? |
| 06:40:26 | tarcieri | yeah |
| 06:40:33 | headius | ok |
| 06:40:39 | tarcieri | zenspider: never heard of banana... |
| 06:40:51 | zenspider | tarcieri: ships with twisted |
| 06:40:58 | tarcieri | aah |
| 06:41:02 | tarcieri | not really a fan of Twisted |
| 06:41:07 | tarcieri | or asynchronous event frameworks in general |
| 06:41:12 | tarcieri | even though I wrote one :/ |
| 06:41:24 | tarcieri | Eventlet sounds cool |
| 06:42:03 | zenspider | I hate twisted, personally... such sucky code. |
| 06:42:05 | tarcieri | and to a lesser extent Kamaelia |
| 06:42:19 | tarcieri | yeah I really don't like the whole IoC approach |
| 06:42:28 | zenspider | it is actually a lot like rails... great if you do exactly what they want you to... blows goats if you need to look inside |
| 06:42:30 | tarcieri | unless used at a very high level |
| 06:42:36 | tarcieri | heh |
| 06:43:18 | tarcieri | I'm much more about plain old synchronous APIs which wrap up complex concurrent logic using something like the Actor model |
| 06:44:46 | tarcieri | The Eventlet guys had the right idea... I think they just didn't discover the Actor model beofre they created it |
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| 07:26:27 | evan | zenspider: hoshi is back up |
| 07:26:45 | zenspider | yay! |
| 07:29:04 | zenspider | pulled and rebuilding |
| 07:29:38 | boyscout | 2 commits by Eric Hodel |
| 07:29:39 | boyscout | * Update to RDoc r104; 94d307e |
| 07:29:40 | boyscout | * Update to RDoc r56; 0704787 |
| 07:30:07 | zenspider | pushed to cpp |
| 07:30:34 | zenspider | next step would be to push this up to the top level, but at this stage, I don't care |
| 07:31:05 | zenspider | top level rake build is still broke, since it just looks to see that vm/vm exists, but that is easy to fix |
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| 08:14:02 | rubuildius_ey64 | Eric Hodel: 94d307e85; 2585 files, 8510 examples, 28537 expectations, 0 failures, 0 errors |
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| 17:40:15 | rue | Well, it is clearly Saturday |
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| 17:56:40 | brixen | rue: a day like any other |
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| 18:55:56 | headius | afternoon |
| 18:58:53 | shoe | afternoon, headius |
| 19:01:13 | headius | hiya |
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| 19:56:34 | djwonk | http://rubini.us/ is down |
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| 20:26:38 | Defiler | Yeah, unfortunately we need evan to kick it, and he is not near a computer at the moment |
| 20:26:48 | Defiler | bus factor 1 =( |
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| 21:47:09 | ljulliar | for your information I have just posted the patch for the implementation of the ARGF class in ticket 663 |
| 21:47:26 | ljulliar | see http://rubinius.lighthouseapp.com/projects/5089-rubinius/tickets/663-patch-bug-fix-in-global-rb-an d-preparation-for-argf#ticket-663-2 |
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| 22:04:00 | Defiler | Cool |
| 22:04:12 | Defiler | So the new patch supersedes the old, right? |
| 22:05:26 | brixen | rubini.us is up |
| 22:05:40 | brixen | I need to get evan to install a startup script for it |
| 22:05:48 | brixen | or have hoshi quite dying |
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| 22:37:34 | rue | Oh, everyone should be able to commit to the Github mirror I think. We can use it when Hoshi is down (and we really really should start using it as the primary repo anyway) |
| 22:37:38 | rue | zenspider: ^^ |
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